Update on Jagger 3: Still a few more days

Just to keep people up-to-date, Jagger3 is not visible yet. Last week I said that Jagger3 would hopefully be visible this week. It’s possible that it might be visible by Friday or this weekend. I’ll let you know when I’ve got more info.

116 Responses to Update on Jagger 3: Still a few more days (Leave a comment)

  1. Thanks for update, Matt. Much appreciated.

  2. Oh I thought its started already.

    Anyway Thank you for the update.

  3. Thanks Matt – Glad I did not stay up all night uk time 🙂

    WMW is going crazy trying to guess the DC (Any chance of a hint – I know it is not there yet – but at least when people say watch DC xx.xx.xx then we will know whether it is worth watching or not)

  4. I guess we stay on pins and needles for a while longer. Thanks for the update, it will allow me to get some sleep and reintroduce myself to my wife 🙂

  5. Bryan, always a good idea. 🙂

  6. Google down???

    Can’t get to google.com,. any page with adsense also seems to load terrible slow..

  7. Well at least this IP address which is where Google.com resolves for me:

  8. LB

    Lot of datacenters are down as well as adwords, adsense, labs, and some other google projects. Strange indeed.

  9. For the first time in 2 weeks I think I’m going to do some work and stop reading the wmw thread!

    Matt, please just let us know when it does start so we don’t waste our lives trying to guess.


  10. Well.. my google.com is running very fast as usual.


    And have no problems with AdSense spots either.

  11. Hairith, that IP works for me too..It just depends on what IP address Google.com is resolving to for you.

  12. The Jagger didn’t affected my site, but i heard that some companies are down.

  13. The data I am seeing in quite a few data centres now look a lot better, not only the super authority sites. A lot more rounded. I did not do too bad anyway so am quite objective. Keep folding in the old data with the new and we will be back to where we were. Good stuff G.

  14. Thanks for update.

    I thought also its started already.

  15. Yes from india it is really very slow. I thought jagger 3 updates happening, may be the reason.

  16. Matt,

    Thank you. I know you can not say too much, but is it at all possible that we can see some changes in the index somewhat similar to pre jagger with regards to white hat relevant seo? I will be completley honest about it, i am about to lose my job and i can not keep saying this is a result of an update. I have a family to take care of and would really appreciate any kind of direction that this next phase is going. Will it be big enough to change what we see, or is this going to be subtle and harlyd noticed?

    I hope for my sake that it is the first choice, but who knows.

    Thanks for updating us and I am aware that you are not a liberty to say to much.


  17. Thank you for the info ! some google features didnt work this morning here in Europe.

  18. Mike, J3 has less to do with spam and more to do with general indexing. It’s hard for me to estimate how it might affect your site without knowing any specifics..

  19. Anybody also experienced difficulties getting sites indexed? I`m running some boards, and I must say that the last 50-100 new postings are not in yet.. those were made days ago, normally google was much faster.. a result of the updates? =)

  20. Whoa!

    Hey Matt, I really like where things are right NOW. Any chance you could talk the other Googlers out of this whole Jagger 3 thing? I mean, take a break, do some site seeing, get with the California image thing.

    Thanks for keeping us informed.


  21. Some update is taking place we are noticing some changes in the serps…*

  22. Matt –

    Don’t you sleep? I am seeing changes in specific search terms. One of our sites is actually ranking very well for the most specific terms, but none for general. Although you said that Jagger 3 won’t be visible? Perhaps this has nothing to do with updates . . .

  23. you do have to feel for these guys who have “clients” or “bosses” who expect results during updates, talk about pressure. how would one tell an over paid, ignorant boss to calm down and give this thing a few weeks?

    it might be better to market your own ideas and tell that lame boss to go to hell. i am lucky to have a wife (librarian) who works, if you don’t have one, find one, marry her and follow your dreams. I dont get out of my PJs until noon, it rocks! 😉

    The Slacker

  24. Matt,

    Is there any other way I can provide the url besides posting it in here? If I posted it here, I would feel less comfortable.

    I assume you have my email account listed, mabey we could send it that way?

    I really appreciate everything you have done with regards to weather reporting and keeping us up to date.

    I have submitted a few dissatisfied reports, but I know you guys are not focusing on that yet. I have come shot of begging who ever reads those dissatisfied submissions exactly the way you have discussed it. Thats my main concern. I am not concerned with spam,I am concerned with indexing issues.

    Thanks again

  25. Hi Matt,

    I have a site I fillled the URI out in the comment box above that has been slammed by Jagger. I filled out the re-include request to the T as you recommended but Google hasn’t even sent me an automated email to tell me they got it, much less a human. So I don’t even know if my request (plea?) was heard.

    Can you help?

  26. Google has ‘listed’ the ‘specifics’ and it still doesn’t matter. There’s a pile of pretty [useless] guidelines here.

    Since this is just about ‘general indexing’ I assume those guidelines will still be ‘decorative’?

    Here’s something interesting. Googling for [jagger update]:

    Result #1 is yourself (heh).

    Result #2 is

    Just 3 sentences of content on the entire page, and it beats over half a million other pages.

    Result #3 is another blog with very little content

    Again, just 3 sentences of ‘precious content’.

    Result #4 is *another* blog with 3 sentences (again) of content there’s at least some discussion and commenting.

    With all of the discussion going on about Jagger in major forums with threads 6 miles long, why are the first few results (excluding yours):
    a) blogs
    b) minimal content (the original posts total 9 SENTENCES)
    c) top ranking

    Down around result #50 you get a juicy piece like:

    Loads of relevant content. Heaps more than the “3 sentences each” the other guys have. Somehow it seems wrong that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th results should be canned blurb with generic info.

    Now, comparing #2, #3 and #4 to the first few precious guidelines …
    – clear hierarchy/links .. yes
    – sitemaps: no
    – “Create a useful, information-rich site,”: HAH

  27. Hi Matt and thanks for keeping us all up to date – it’s far too easy to enter into the paranoi that surrounds a GG update and try to keep a sense of balance.

    Our site, online since 1999, is our only source of income and as such I don’t do anything to jeopardize that – completely white hat and created and maintained with the visitor in mind – but SEO’d to try to keep at the top of the SEs.
    Since Sept – pre update so assumed it was just everflux – the site has fallen for EVERY single search term about 40/50 places.

    Now my worry is that I have somehow fallen foul of the GG algo – but playing this waiting game incase I come back normally is so very, very stressful (plus we’re on holiday, and – I kid you not – this happens every time we go on holiday – not had one yet we could relax properly)

    So I’m dreading this weekend – if it comes back – big big sigh of relief – if not I think I’ll just burst into tears – its OK I’m a girlie – but could be the straw etc.

    My point – wouldn’t it be lovely if we had some sort of pointer for established white hat sites, that indicated we were going over the line or it was just an everflux situation and it was somone else’s turn for the top spots – see I don’t mind sharing 🙂

    Going to go away and relax now.

  28. Well, I hope this means that the results are going to settle in Google soon.

    I think whoever runs your PR department could do with a kicking, though – running a major update in the shopping run before Christmas again is not going to help build brand popularity, where mom and pops can lose significant income from loss of natural listings.

  29. Look at the history. It always happens right before the Holidays.

  30. Hi Matt,

    Can we expect any changes in Pagrank, while since Jagger1 my homepage has Pagrank of 0, but all subpages have 4-6.


  31. Yep the whole “wife that works” is the key. my wife currently doesn’t work and that is the ONLY reason I’m not doing this full time already.

  32. Matt – Thanks heaps for the blog. It’s nice to finally get information from “the horses mouth” (no offence – lol) instead of the myriad speculative forum posts.

    Mike – you have my sympathy. Anybody who thinks you should be able to outguess google in advance should either learn to read and swot up on the subject, or should not own a website!
    Aaron has the right idea, a wife that works and an office in the bedroom 🙂

    As for J3, it’s strange that you say it’s not with us yet… Yesterday there were huge fluctuations in serps, swapping back and forward between two completely different sets of results for several hours!
    Glad the “new data” didn’t stick, they were very weird results.

    I have made a few spam reports following J2.
    I keep finding huge networks of domains (with multiple sub-domains) all interlinking with pages filled with spam (zero content) and pages “under construction” filled with hidden text etc… it seems to me that creating sub-domains instead of sub-folders is a way to dominate serps with multiple listings from – essentially – the same place.
    It seems like a bit of a loophole.

    Brian – I’m afraid it’s my fault – not googles! I have a rather large directory – been running for 3/4 years now – every time I redesign it (a process which normally takes several months), within 48 hours of uploading google implements another major update (my first rebuild was uploaded the day before “Florida” and it’s been the same ever since!
    I knew I shouldn’t rebuild it this close to christmas but I uploaded it 2 day before Jagger1 started… sorry 🙁

  33. Thanks for the update matt.

    any idea when jagger3 will be done?

  34. Well I’m glad I’ve stopped listening to the people in the forums, according to them the update has been out for days.

  35. Thx very much for the udate about the starting of Jagger3.

    Here in germany all forums are full with speculative and useless J3 comments.

    I´m quite happy that J3 still didn´t start – because the Google results in germany are full with irrelevant results.

    One major problem seems to be a georaphical/language criterium – when I look in google.de for english keywords with the search “pages from germany” I get mainly english and american sites which are defintitely not from germany? There must be something wrong – i hope J3 will regulate this again …;-))

    best wihes from south-germany

  36. Hi Matt!

    On a totally unrelated subject:
    I’ve got a site with some HTML pages that I would like to include some PHP tags in and don’t want to change the extension name of the page for various reasons.

    If I include the following in the .htaccess file, will it hinder Googlebot in any way or mess with my rankings for those pages?

    AddType application/x-httpd-php .html
    AddHandler application/x-httpd-php .html


  37. Thanks for the weather report Matt…

    Is there specific things being said about what this next update will include, and what it is trying to fix in the index?

    Any Idea how it may effect small business for the holiday traffic rush?

    We are keeping our fingers crossed that things go well. LOL

  38. i went from #4 on page 1 to #1000’th and back to #10 on page one, hopefully i will regain my serps.

  39. Hello Matt,

    I read a previous post where you said that jagger3 has less to do with spam and more to do with indexing.
    Does this mean that if my site or anybody’s site for that matter was severely negatively impacted by jagger1 and jagger2 that I shouldn’t get my hopes up that I or others will regain any of the lost ranks?
    OR will jagger3 still cause movement in the results?

    Thanks, Joe

  40. It certainly appears to me that something is in flux. In the last 24 hours, I’ve watched one of my primary keywords go from page 6 to page 1 and back to page 8. Whether it’s due to Jagger3, remnants of Jagger2 or just to make me anxious, it sure seems that something is changing in the index.

  41. Thanks for the latest update Matt!!

  42. I hope what Joe says above is not true. We spent months in the sandbox to finally come good after the last update. Jagger has reverted us back to near sandbox position and now only appears to show authority sites with less relevant results for even obscure searches that our site should, and used to, do well for. I am hoping the authority sites are just a temporary measure while G plays with the real results and unleashes them in J3 – Any truth in my theory Matt?

  43. Matt,
    Jagger isn’t a ‘normal’ update. Can you state the prime objectives of this update, so as to quell the speculation in forums and groups, please.

    As I see it, this is a 3 phase update,which is aimed at providing the best possible SERP’s. This involves removal of sites which abuse the system, by way of spam etc.It also involves carefully sorting the SERP’s in order of contentual importance and relevance. Of course, these are the aims of any update, but it appears that this latest one is going head on, and making the algo’s more efficient in their analysis of sites that don’t meet the guidelines.

  44. Thanks for stop the myths, Matt.

    In the forums peoples are saying J3 is going on.

  45. We have been seeing some odd stuff lately, like pages with very little text, or practically no text just a few keywords and no back links go to number one positions in local search for reasonably hard key-phrases.
    It appears there are a few issues that need to be ironed out and that may be do this in the final update to Jagger.
    While it is interesting to note that older domains and well established domains seem to be taking more preference in this update it should be noted that some of these domains are quite shoddy in design, content and structure and now appear to be doing quite well.
    We have also noted new domains that are well developed with rich content suddenly disappear. Is this is a coincidence?

  46. I’m one of those small “Mom & Daughter” companies that was attacked by Jagger. I lost 6 months of SEO. Hard earned money lost right before the holidays plus my Google rankings are so low I feel I’m back in the sandbox. I can only hope that my rankings come back soon or I might as well sell this company for $59.95 and walk away. I feel the big boys are squashing me. I have put so much money into this company making it a good solid retail business for my daughter and I.

    Just thought you might want to hear from the little guy who is paying the web guys whom are all pacing right now because of the big “G” guy.

    Thanks for allowing me to speak, I feel better now.

  47. from over here, just checking out a few datacenters, it definetely appears as though a few datacenters have started with jagger3.. are you sure Matt? 🙂 Thanks.

  48. Matt,
    Thanks for the update. I see some stability back on Google.com with rankings making much more sense from a pure organic no spam SEO perspective. Is Google.com now the final Jagger 2?

  49. Since Jagger3 is more about indexing, does this mean that newer sites might start to show up in the serps?

  50. Matt

    HELP! Mozilla Googlebot is going to fast – does Googlebot obey crawl-delay in robots.txt – Anyway to slow it down ?????? – Dont really want to do what others have done and tell your crawl team who then take Googlebot away 🙁

    One database closed by hosts due to the crawl speed 🙁

    Advice appreciated.



  51. Matt, thanks for giving us the heads up. It is tiring seeing all these posts on forums frantically anticipating when the next update is going to hit with people arguing back and forth.

    Will be interested to see what changes in jagger3 though. Keep us posted.

  52. Hey Matt,

    Quick question – Will a site with no links, no G sitemaps & no manual submission to Google be able to get indexed simply by someone using the Google toolbar? 😀


  53. Let’s see. Multiple data centers are now showing Jagger2, but I don’t think every data center is. I believe Jagger2 is at the cluster of data centers that includes Stephen, I don’t think we support crawl-delay in robots.txt. But you might check out sitemaps–it might allow you more control.

    Paul, the objective of Jagger is to improve our index results. The three stages are actually three independent launches.

    urdudesamy, there are some Jagger1-related changes going on at

  54. Matt

    Regarding the jagger1 changes at, the results seem better and closer to pre-jagger (although my personal site is still not there – ouch). Will these results be affected by J3 too?

    Just trying to make some sense of it and I can carry on doing my own “Google dances” to wish my site back up!



  55. Thanks Matt

    But dont you think that Googlebot crawling at 20 pages a second is to much ?

    You would have to be a big player if you can handle 72,000 page requests an hour and still leave room for the odd visitor. 🙂

    I am going to try and optimize my database a bit more first – but Mozilla Googlebot just seems to be out of control sometimes!

  56. Hi Matt

    am I wrong when I say that Jagger3 is the most important update in Google history until now?

    And after Jagger3 (followed by the flux) we shall see a new kind of Google index?


  57. Matt,

    So Jagger 3 (if it’s about Indexing improvement) should be pretty different from what we see at Jagger 2. Is this a correct assumption?

    Thank you.

  58. I’m just ready for this whole thing to be over. 🙂

  59. Matt,
    was the Sept 22nd “update” part of Jagger? what was this Sept 22nd change aimed at?

    thank you, sid

  60. Hi Matt,

    Cheers for the updates, I have tend to notice for quite a few key phrases I optimize my site for, have now got spam sites all with titles of eBay and leading to .info sites, will jagger3 clear these up or is it just general indexing that jagger3 is going to be doing?


    p.s. nice pr on your blog! wish I could have the same heh

  61. Hi Matt, thanks for informing us about the changes. I have 2 questions if you can help me out with.

    1. Is Jagger 3 going to take place on
    2. Is the Jagger 2 result on going to change dramatically?


  62. Matt – what method does G use to redirect https://www.google.com/ to http://www.google.com/ and or as another example https://www.google.com/intl/en/options/ back to http://www.google.com/

    I noticed that any https pages are on a sub domain. Would you suggest that redirecting ALL https on www back to the home page along with putting any https pages on a sub domain to that G does acidently recrawl the entire site on https?

  63. Matt –
    Is Jagger heralding a greater use of AI ? MSN is catching up and their neural net appears to be learning …. fast.

  64. Hi Matt,

    Just wondering with Jagger affected the Australian datacentres if you are aware of it?


  65. Hi Matt, where can i upload my halloween photos?? I think you should post them here for all your guest to enjoy. I know they will he HAPPY to see them!

    Also, you mentioned Yahoo fixing some of the search results, i am sure this is true as i seem them make some of the search terms i am familiar with stay like they want no matter what their algo is, but how about google?

    I know a site that has been #1 at google for 4 years in a very compeitive area. Do you think anyone will believe that any site could stay #1 for 4 years with all the major algo changes which google has implemented in that time unless google just hard coded them in the #1 spot?

    So my question is this … who do i have to speak to to get that spot?? Please write me about this.

  66. Matt – I am wondering if all the things I have done following your advice and googleguy’s advice to get myself back to normal in google have made things even worse for me.

    My site is my baby, and for seven years I’ve labored at it. The result is, I was just featured in Time Magazine, on the news, etc. It is currently a Forbes Best of Web site. I hand-paint the maps, use large format photography and spend months researching my articles. In 2004, I had affiliate content, which I now understand gave me a duplicate content penalty.

    So I:

    1. Submitted site map
    2. Changed to absolute links
    3. Changed web host so my domain wouldnt share w others.

    Now, I’ve noticed that I don’t have internal page rank above a 1 and google still thinks I have pages that I don’t. Is there anybody who can help me figure out where I’ve gone wrong? I’m not very technical.

    Thanks! Erik

  67. Matt,

    Two quick things:

    1. When filing a reinclusion request, one receives an email which begins: “Thank you for your note. This is an automated reply to your inquiry about your site’s inclusion in the Google search results. We’re always working hard…”

    It’s hard to tell whether one needs to reply again to get the request considered…or whether just the filing the initial request is enough. Can you clarify?

    2. I’m guessing this isn’t your area…but this slow loading ads thing is killing me. I have to load my pages 7-8 times before they will come up…and Adsense ads appear to be the problem. Certainly this is costing both me AND Google money.

    I wrote to support and recieved these two apparently contradictory responses in the same email:

    “Yesterday evening we encountered technical difficulties with our ad servers, and were unable to serve targeted ads to your web pages for a brief period. This problem should be entirely resolved by tomorrow. If you continue to have problems after that date, please let us know.”

    “Our engineers quickly resolved the issue, and ad serving has returned to normal.”

    Of course, I can wait until tomorrow to see if it’s resolved. But there has been NO improvement from what I’ve seen so far. They DO know there’s still a serious problem, right?



  68. I see the results are improving.
    Can’t wait for this update to be stable.
    When do you think Jagger will be over? Sometime next week?

  69. RE: When do you think Jagger will be over? Sometime next week?

    Nah, Mick will be rockin for a few years yet 🙂

  70. Matt,

    Do have anty idea why google would drop my (PR6) site from cache.


    And instead cache an alternative (PR4) url


    When this happened I fell off the map (from 14) for my keywords.

    Ant suggestions?


  71. I have been monitoring this week and out of 9 of my most favorite keyword / search terms for my own site, only 2 keywords shifted.

    I find this very interesting. Wll keep on monitoring it – one thing that I did notice is that directory sites seems to obtain preference in the search results now.

    Thanks for setting the record straight about Jagger3 – I will monitor next week as well to see where things shift.

  72. Hi Matt

    Thanx for the update. One of my biggest clients yesterday dumped me because we started SEO on their site starting October. Murphy’s Law I say that it had to be when Google’s doing their biggest update ever. The site completely fell out of the first 10 pages after being top 10 for multiple top competitive phrases. No, we didn’t do any major changes to the site except for cleaning up and adding content.

    I’ve resorted to ‘working for free’ to prove that it’s just an update. We can’t lose credibility on this one! I hope things pan out allright.


  73. Well Matt,
    I’ve been playing around with the big 3 engines. It is pretty obvious that Google now ranks 3rd and relevance is a joke. When is Google going to get back to providing end users with relevant content? or is it about getting searchers to click on the right hand side? Update before the holidays again, nice. I guess it is all about money now for Google which is fine. Remember people have a choice and slowly you will loose market share. It may take a while but it will happen. Content is king, that’s now a joke. We are seeing graphical sites with few backlinks ranking very high, do you care to explain this? or are you going to laugh all the way to the bank?

  74. Matt my site has just washed away totally including PR and cache everything….
    in short banned…

    I’m just clueless as to what to do…
    Jagger 1 wipes my rankings away and now my site disappears from the index itself…

    Few things to point: had subdomains running… which when compard to other instances on google serps is working fine for others.

    We have travel sites running interlinked with each other, displaying our network… – Again there are sites running the same thing but they are on top.

  75. RE: I’m just clueless as to what to do…

    Read the google Webmaster/SEO guidlines until your eyes bleed then make your entire site white hat and resubmit.

    RE: Few things to point: had subdomains running

    Seems to be the latest SE scheme! If sub domains are relevant enough to interlink, they should be pages on the ONE site. E.g

    It is far easier to build, maintain, SEO etc one big site than many subdomains.

    RE: We have travel sites running interlinked with each other, displaying our network… – Again there are sites running the same thing but they are on top.

    Don’t worry about what others do! Focus on your site only. Some people get away with murder, rape etc but that never makes it ok. Besides, just because a black hat site is ranking well today, doesn’t mean it will be tomorrow. In fact, I doubt most black hats sleep with both eyes shout 🙂

  76. sid, Sept 22nd was not a part of Jagger.

  77. Hi Matt,

    why did you remove my last post from yesterday ..:-(((

    Nevertheless, since yesterday the index seemed to change a little according my question, but I still would be interested, if Google will handle in Jagger3 the mentionend language/geographical problem, if you search in google.de for english keyword phrases.

    When I search for sites with english keywords in google.de “results from germany”, I allways get about 50% worldwide (mainly US) results?

    Do you know about this problem – I saw it about since the beginning of Jagger2?

    Would be nice if you could answer (at least by mail) this time instead of just deleting my post. When I know, that you don´t want me to write/ask here i´ll stop it and don´t waste my time anymore – until you just delete my post without comment I will handle it like Jagger: and i try, and i try, and i try …;-)


  78. Thanks for the sept22 info.

    Can you say anything more on this Sept 22nd “update” Matt?


    sorry about the comment in the wrong place, security code problems

  79. Hi Matt,
    I am running a white hat travel site. When I planned three years ago my travel site there was no ban for crosslinking. So I reqiestered three domains for each language one. (diferent IP address)
    http://www.prague.st english
    http://www.prag.st german
    http://www.praha.st czech

    Now I am afraid it could be seen by google as spam. We had three flags on each site which linked to this three domains – crosslinking?
    When Jagger started I better swith them off. But it hurts our customers.

    Second problem our big site is devided into three sites so we lose value because google likes big sites.

    Would it be possible to marry this three sites to solve bought problems.

    Thank you very very much for reading my problem.


    Pavel R.

  80. Hi Matt,
    Will the jagger completion rectify what happned on 22 Sep?

  81. Hi Matt,

    Was the Sept 22nd major flux the rollout of a penalty of some sort? Wll there be somewhat of a flux back to pre-Sept 22nd SERPS after Jagger has sung its last note?


  82. Just pointing, sory if its a little ot.
    We got plenty problems with the update.
    I think it due to similar or very similar content. Let say 6 pages per category that look very similar.
    ( like we work print business in argentina ) It was a good technicque for us to have 6 different kind of business cards each with its own page, cause customer arrived from google to the EXACT page of what he queried. I know may sound a little exagerated.
    But we got really downstairs in serps, think due to that, and keyword writtten urls. like… /magnetics/laser-printed-magnetics.php // offset-printed-magnetics.php, and so on.
    On the other hand, i see ebay partner for l.a. ( mercadolibre.com.ar ) to mention one, and many many many affiliate sites, ranking ok, when they have dupe dupe content, pages made by photos ( by the users ) where the only change is the url and vendor name..

    I got a little dissapointed.. befor jagger google had my site OVERVALUATEDE, cause it went first for many irrelevant searches, ( like ggle took our client list and made it first for lot of non printing business )…
    Anyways if someone wana take a look and leave an opinion…. your wcome.
    old structure:
    and child pages on left menu…..

    After jagger structure ( testing )
    all subpages GROUPED in one main one.. and child pages with NOINDEX NOFOLLOW , just for mr gbot not to get ungry….

    Anyways… we keep L.O.L. but not so much : ))

  83. Hello,
    Is there any datacenter that is close to its final update ?
    My site is doing a yoyo dance at the moment, very happily coming out 3 to 6 in searches to do with our topic and this since the last week end.

    However looking at all the DC I can see us going to 12 or 24th place. so which one to watch ?

    However I am quiet happy with the results to see that even if I end up in 12th place, some of the biggest spammer for these keywords are ending up being us now

    Thanks for the updates

  84. One thing that I have noticed with the Jagger updates, is the ebay and craigslist listings have been floating to the top for fairly competitive terms. Is this possible a glitch in the update? Their relevance seems very questionable especially since they are mostly expired already. It doesn’t seem like google for something simply irrelevant, like expired auctions, to breach the top 5 or even top 50.

  85. I am very afraid of this, what Google ist doing.

  86. Hi Matt,

    Love you blog!

    Do you have a list of all your DataCenter IP’s. Seems like they have changed from the list that I have. It’s been a long while since I stayed up night checking them out and seems like I need to start doing it again.

    Thanks Matt,


  87. Sorry! Matt, my source code seems to get translated into html when I submit it. Let me try it again. Wish there is an edit function.

    Will Jagger 3 update be ok with the following code on the website or will the following code will be identified as a spam?

    <script language="javascript">
    function expand(sec)
    thisSec = eval(‘e’ + sec);
    if (thisSec != null){
    if (thisSec.length){
    if (thisSec[0].style.display != ‘none’){
    for (var i=0;i<thisSec.length;i++) {thisSec[i].style.display = ‘none’}
    for (var i=0;i<thisSec.length;i++) {thisSec[i].style.display = ‘inline’}
    if (thisSec.style.display != ‘none’) {thisSec.style.display = ‘none’}
    else{thisSec.style.display = ‘inline’}


    My topic 1
    <td id="e0">
    A long explanation of My topic 1.
    My topic 2
    <td id="e1">
    A long explanation of My topic 2.

    I used the above code on my site for user’s convenience (so users do not have to scroll down) and my site seemed to be identified as a spam.

    It would be great if you could answer if using the above code will get my site get into trouble in Jagger 3.


  88. Opps! still have a problem in the above post. I really wish there is an edit function.

    Please view
    My topic 1 -> <a href="javascript:expend(0)">My topic 1</a>
    My topic 2 -> <a href="javascript:expend(1)">My topic 2</a>

    I do apologize for this many post.


  89. Matt – in the guidelines it talks about “sites” going supplemental, when it’s more common (I think) for only certain pages of a site to go supplemental. Why does this even happen? Guidelines are frustratingly vague on this.

    Is supplemental a kiss of death for the page or can it be reversed?

  90. Hi Matt

    Thanks for the update, i really do hope things improve for us on Jagger 3 (the return).

    You know, I haven’t knowlingly done anything underhand and don”t really understand all lthe concepts of SEO that the others here talk about, although im trying to learn (now i have to)..

    Whatever we were doing previously though, over the last 18 months since we launched our online business (my girlfriend and i) the old Google must have liked, we did originally rank quite well only to really drop in Jagger 1 and 2. We dont have any spam tactics, as i wouldnt know how to do it. So i dont know whats happened to us, have we fallen out?.

    I can only hope that Jagger 3 returns us to some place we can be found, We have dropped 100 places and our traffic dropped to 20% of what it was. The thing is, our site once paid the bills, now we will be lucky if we see christmas through.

    What exactly has happened? does anyone know..? How do i explain all this to Mrs Dave(UK)?


  91. Hi Matt

    Thank you for all the feedback you provide, it truly is invaluable to us webmasters.

    I’m one of those that got hit severly by the Sep 22 changes whatever they were. I’ve been quitely hoping that the Jagger update would solve the problem eventually, but that doesn’t seem likely if the change isn’t even part of Jagger.

    Do you have any recommendation for us that got hit by the Sep 22 changes? Will this problem possibly go away if we wait and do nothing? Do we need to figure out what Google doesn’t like and make changes to our site? Any suggestions would be welcome.

  92. Matt,

    This is a little off topic, but if you’re still reading these comments and responding to them, I would like to mention a site of mine that was penalized by Google a while ago. I sent in several requests to Google asking why the site was penalized (because it does not, and never did, use any prohibited tactics), but was never given a reason – nor was the site unpenalized. I am just asking for resolution of some sort to my predicament. If Google is neither going to unpenalize the site nor send me a reason, at least PLEASE ask them to tell me so, so that I can reach resolution with my situation. I have been in a state of limbo for quite a while now.

    Thank you.

  93. Just a simple question Matt, when will Jagger be finished?
    I’m a bit tired of waiting without trying to hack the big G. 🙂

  94. Hi Matt,

    I am not an SEO – however i use an SEO who has recently delevered traffic to me via other sites “portals” that he has. He assures me thay this is all “legal” and nothing that Google would penalize. I am not convinced as since 22 Sep we have lost our ranking etc. How do i check to see if indeed his methods are not doing us any harm?



  95. Hey Matt,

    I just stumbled upon this today, and personally I think blogging the stuff going on in the Big G is a cool feature.

    Question on Jagger3: is it going to include a PageRank update as well?

    Also, it may be in here but I can’t find it: how did you come up with the name Jagger, anyway? (I can’t find an answer to this anywhere, and it’s just such a weird name…do Sergey and Larry do bong hits while listening to Tattoo You? What’s the deal?)

  96. Ruler,

    I feel your pain. A few months ago I was penalized with NO explanation. Previous to my penalty, I enjoyed great rankings, and NEVER had to do any SEO. Anyway, after countless emails to google for reinclusion (thanks for the CANNED response G!), fixing anything possible that I thought might be a cause, I have given up on Google and trying to re-enter their index. My only hope is that something better will come along, to top Google’s mediocre search results. Google’s results are so stale lately, so that if you are looking for something new, go elsewhere.


    The Non-Googleguy

  97. September 22nd wiped us out even though we had no hidden text or other issues with the site. I filed the reinclusion request, talked with Google support who said nothing was wrong and that we weren’t penalized.


    (Okay, I’m physically shaking trying to write this)

    Matt, I’d love to throw a party but I’m hessitant. Are we going to disappear tomorrow? Is this a fluke?

    Please Matt — you’re killing us here and we truly didn’t spam your index!


  98. Unless….
    Matt, did Jagger1 deal with duplicate content? We added a bunch of Disallow statements to our robots.txt file which were old urls leading to the same content. Google was the only one who knew about them and they were never used but they were in the index. Now, I’ve noticed that none of them are in your index.

    We also changed a bunch of old redirects from 302 to 301 and did the same for our domain (minus the www).

    Could it have been something as simple as that or am I in for a bit of flux and bound to disappear tomorrow?


  99. Hi Matt
    Can you answer one question as i am seeing something new in google results.
    For example when you search for “paper store” or “Drug store” we see number 1 website appears differently in results as

    The Paper Store
    Hallmark, book, stationary, and candel store. Includes store tour, list of locations in Worcester County and Eastern Massachusetts, and event information.
    http://www.thepaperstore.com/ – 2k – Cached – Similar pages
    THE PAPER STORE – Dynamic Drive DHTML Scripts-Typing Scroller
    banner – http://www.thepaperstore.com
    More results from http://www.thepaperstore.com »

    But this doesn’t happens with every query why?

  100. Thanks for updating my website appears again with some more keywords now .

  101. >>>I think whoever runs your PR department could do with a kicking, though – running a major update in the shopping run before Christmas again is not going to help build brand popularity, where mom and pops can lose significant income from loss of natural listings.

  102. Matt,

    I know that you are currently in the middle of an update but I just want to point out as a whole I used to never find myself frustrated with Google’s results.

    Windows XP SP2 is currently causing an error and I am trying to find the fix for it. The Google results are truly useless. I honestly cannot remeber seeing poorer results on a search engine. For 30 minutes I have just sifted through page ofter page of nonesense when it hit me why don’t I try another search engine.

    Alot of people are in the habit of using Google but if you keep up with these terrible results it won’t take long for them to make the decision to switch.

    Google is currently 10 tears old and on top of the world. Yahoo! at its peak probably could have bought Disney but that is no longer the case. If Google keeps up these terrible results then history just might repeat itself.

  103. One last series of questions Matt:

    You’ve got the September 22nd update which you’re saing isn’t part of Jagger? And then there are the three Jaggers (Larry, Moe and Curley). However, you’re talking about them as if they’re all happening at the same time which is pretty confusing.

    That said, WWW resolves to for me and our site is back from the dead (postions 350+). It’s also looking great at: However, on it’s still buried.

    So the question begs — what the heck am I seeing here? Which ip will give me the best view of the future.

    Sorry, I’m just trying to figure out if I’m out of the wood and should throw a party or if I’m still fumbling around in the dark.

    Thanks for keeping us informed!


  104. Matt,
    A question on the “canonical” effect (I think) that was posted on a prior thread. One of your commentors mentioned that we all wait until after Jagger3 because Google was supposed to address this at that time.
    I have a 2000 page site that has been online since 1999. We are also an Adwords advertiser and prior to Google ad tracking, we implemented our own URL tracking code like the following:


    I’m seeing this URL now in Google’s search results AS WELL as the non-tracking code flavor. In fact, I’ve seen the non www prefexed version as well as double slashes all in one search result. Each have different cache dates and varying PR.


    1. Is this a Google problem and are they going to fix it at Jagger3?
    2. Is my page losing PR because its being shared among 4 (or possibly many more index entries)?
    3. Is the page potentially being penalized for duplicate content (Does Google really think I have 4 or more identical pages)?

    The tracking code is probably the most widespread, but I can remove that if I have to. We did add the 301 redirect on non www prefix 2 weeks ago. The double slashes is a mystery because we could not find that in our site. Pages that we’ve seen with this all have cache dates of June about the time we joined Google Sitemap program. Virtually all pages now have this double slash duplicate.

  105. Kelly Jones ~ Very good question and I guess the answer is sadly “wait and see”. ;-(

  106. Dave Said:

    RE:RE: Few things to point: had subdomains running

    RE: Seems to be the latest SE scheme! If sub domains are relevant
    RE: enough to interlink, they should be pages on the ONE site. E.g
    RE: http://www.domain.com/apples/
    RE: http://www.domain.com/oranges/
    RE: http://www.domain.com/pears/
    RE: It is far easier to build, maintain, SEO etc one big site than many
    RE: subdomains

    In the past, subdomains were the manner to be more specific within the domains. apples.domain.com, oranges.domain.com and pears.domain.com is not so stupid as said. It’s not more difficult to build and maintain.
    What is the difference between http://www.domain.com/apples and apples.domain.com in the end? Nothing.
    You can do wrong and right things with both.

    I’ve a site which use subdomains from 2001, to categorize the information and show it from another point of view. Always good ranking, other sites referring to .domain.com, regarding the information they want to refer to.
    Now, from 25 oct, the site is banned. Why? Shall a move from apples.domain.com to http://www.domain.com/apples be helpfull?

    My site has a 1000 records with lot of information per record, all explored via different subdomains. Records can be in more subdomains. On each subdomain the visitor can make the info-query more specific with advanced search.
    Google sees this as duplicate information, I think. But is is no spamming! It is a way to give site users control over what they want to see. For normal people the site is no spam, for Google it is. I prefer the meaning of normal people above the automatic decisions of some robot-machines.

  107. Spam reporting.

    Is it appropriate to report an obvious link network that is manufacturing high PR among several sites as Spam? Should I include Jagger2 in this report?

  108. No idea why, or even if your site has been banned. I suggest you read Google guidelines and info and make your site squeaky clean.

    If you want to run multiple subdomains you can, go for it. I would always opt for one big site when the themes are related though. Makes much more sense, holds no risks, easier for customers, no cross-linking, better for SE and better for SEO and Webmasters etc etc. It’s only if the topics were totally unrelated that I would use sub domains, or different ones. Then, I woulld simply not need to cross-link.

    Care to share your URL?

  109. I’m in accommodation business, in small touristic town and me and 65 other business in our town we are for more than a month without listings in google. So no traffic no business, visits go down and they were about 15-20% of amout before this update. Our main keyword is the name of our town and now google is showing only some big sites under our keyword. What to do ? Me and others we are reading and reading, our webmasters do not know what to do. I think we are that made google big with our business, offers, sites that we built for our costumers and years and years we are making changes that google will like us!!?? At the moment no costumer which is seeking for kind of service we are offering can find us and our service on google, so last week I and my frineds we start to get traffic from other search sites, even 10 to 20 times more as last few years. So what to do ? Goolge don’t want to have us in it’s listings and people like and want to have our service so they start to use other serach sites to find us and we have to help them. How ? We have one meeting yesterday and we will have another this week. The idea is to remove our sites from Google and from all big travel sites which are listed good in google, what means that under our main keyword there will be about 40% less listings. In this mont we learn how to survive without google and believe me our coustumers will learn where to find us.

  110. Like everybody else, I have been sitting back watching jagger reworking the serp, s. My site, although small compared to my compition has done ok, and like everybody else, I will continue to work and improve and gain better ranking. What I can not understand is why sites using hidden text are again top in serp,s


    Google search


    No 1 hidden text, this is one of the biggest sites in Italy PR5. 1500000 pages indexed


    No 4 hidden text PR 4 240000 pages indexed.


    No16 hidden text PR4 120000 pages indexed

    And these are some of the worst offenders, check it out, its spam city. So my question is, how do they get away with it, has jagger worked? At least MSN and Yahoo have spotted these offenders.

  111. Does anyone at Google actually realize how much damage these ‘updates’ are doing to legitimate sites?

    My traffic was dropped from 5-6k visits per day down to 1100 when Google started ‘fixing’ things.

    More then 140 key search phrases tanked along with the site traffic. What rose up to take my place were made for adsense sites that stole the title’s and content from my own to take my place. It’s as clear as day because all my page titles are prefixed with my site’s name. Yes, I have reported them, and no, I haven’t seen any changes – they’re still there.

    It seems that Google is subsidizing this activity by paying those people adsense dollars.

    My site is legit, helps thousands of people world-wide and generates/devlops it’s own content (not scraping).

    Prior to the Google updates my site was seeing steady (all year) traffic of 5k visits per day and growing to 6k because of the content I was adding by helping others.

    I’m not alone – there are many, many others who are reporting drastic drops to the extent that they may not be in business any longer.

    On top of that, more and more reports are surfacing about people doing searches on Google and not finding anything relavent except scraper sites. Many people are turning to MSN or Yahoo to get an accurate search.

    Prior to the updates the scraper sites didn’t matter to me. I was able to power right past them due to my site’s well-deserved ownership of key phrases. Thousands of people were helped by my site’s tech support answers and now there’s so few people that several have commented that it’s become like a ghost town.

    Talent that I had been trying to attract to the site mentioned to me that there’s no need for them to answer questions – there’s no backlog! On top of that I made a deal with top people at Microsoft to help with tech support for visitors to my site that are experiencing new bugs/problems. I also recently signed a deal for dedicated server hosting and what happens?

    Google tanks my site and rewards the scraper sites. My adsense earnings drop like a rock and the scrapers make more then they ever have. I’m not alone, there’s thousands (if not millions) who have legitimate sites and have been ruined by Jagger.

    I don’t understand what was wrong with Google in the first place. My site ranked near the top or at the top for all the key areas it’s involved in. For me this means that people having problems immediately found relavent content that typically fixed their issues. As a result the customer was happy.

    Any phrases I didn’t rank at the top on were appropriate, other sites had better ways of addressing the issue. It was fair and the customer won each time by finding the right content. My adsense earnings were covering the cost of site hosting and I was hoping for a little extra. Now I’m back to paying out of pocket (like the last 4 years) to help others for free.

    Just when I thought I’d finally found a way to help others and cover my costs and maybe, just hopefully earn a little for my time too the Jagger Effect set in and wiped out my site. I still have 1100 visits per day so if you have any more updates maybe you can cut my site right off at the knees too and be done with it.

  112. Matt,
    In keeping up with spam reporting, I found this 3
    site link network that looked pretty interesting. It
    appears that this technique works and these sites are
    able to manufacture pretty decent PR and keyword
    positioning for voxeo.com.

    http://www.voxeo.com #1 IVR on Google

    All three are owned by voxeo but have 3 different
    registrations. All run on same domain server.

    Here’s the network

    voxeo links out once to vxml HOME on every pages.

    rjauburn links twice to voxeo HOME every page (IVR &
    VoiceXML). No links back

    vxml links twice to voxeo every page (IVR & VoiceXML)

  113. Can someone tell me how to “check your site” ?
    I am not sure how to do this.

  114. I got hit badly by the Sep 22 changes, although I don’t do anything untoward. My site is still in the index but ranks for absolutely nothing – just as I started making some headway within Google.

    Any chance of letting us know why the Sep 22 changes lost so many of us our positions when we’re essentially doing nothing wrong?

  115. What do you want to do with IP address? This IP is of the default Google Blogger server. What’s helping is need by you?

  116. Very good question and I guess the answer is sadly “wait and see”. ;-(